User talk:Light-Revan

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Please note that this is an automated message. However, if you still have any questions feel free to leave a message at the community portal, the forums or on my talk page and I'll see what I can do! When leaving your message, please be sure to sign your name by typing  ~ . Have fun and enjoy your stay! -- Kyosei (Talk) 17:52, April 16, 2012

Alliances
are there to note who joins whom and when in each game. Which is practically rendered pointless in WO3. Except for the serpent army since they still oppose the player. In this case, a Hydra section can be added onto the Orochi army page because they're still the same darn being in the end anyways.

Alliances are not there to say who is what "race" someone is or what have you. Besides, the character articles themselves say whether they're an immortal or not. You can put an overall summary of their activities at the top of the page (or its own section if it gets too long), but please don't try to make these alliance pages anything more than that. Because they are fictional and pertain only to this universe.

The descriptions you're putting are also a little misleading. Just because one language says they're demons doesn't mean they are accepted the same in English. Mystics wouldn't be called mystics if you're following the Japanese script; they would be called immortal beings or more specifically xianren/sennen. But that doesn't matter because in the end, this is an English wiki. Official localization overrules pretty much anything us fans want to defend from the original Japanese script.

Sometimes that causes problems explaining how things work and messes up continuity. This time, it really doesn't. I don't see why you're trying to defend your stance so badly. Sake neko 18:03, April 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * What I'm trying to say is that the "race" article you're trying to go for is redundant since the current page alreadly states that they're not human. "Although they look human" means that they're not of mortal origin. It says that on the Mystics page as it stands already. That's what opening paragraphs are meant to do, to establish how they're different from another alliance.


 * To say that again on yet another page is redundant. I mean, you're only talking about the WO version of immortals/demons. You aren't even trying to establish the real world version at all. If you want to talk a "race" page, you would call it its real name first and then compare it to something Koei made up.


 * The "demons" you're actually trying to cover is too broad to limit to one page since you're trying summarize every type of malevolent spirit simultaneously. The "mystics" you're thinking of are also in the same boat. Sake neko 18:25, April 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I care about the real world counterparts once you start flinging words like "races" out there and trying to delineate how "mystics" and "demons" are by using only the WO versions of them. Because they DO exist in other Koei franchises, and they're not the same as the WO series by a long shot (Fengshen Yanyi, Saiyuki: Journey West, Harukanaru Toki no Naka de (series), Zill O'll to name some of the examples). That's why I'm so adamant on having the alliance pages stay the way they are currently. Because the WO definitions are the only things you're talking about.


 * For those reasons really, you can expand on how the mystics/Orochi forces are on their already created pages only. You can mention who was introduced as what per game and who sided with whom because that's the point of these pages. Sake neko 18:47, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

Lu Bu
means "the strongest fighter of the era" from a marketing stand point. Let's compare Lu Bu with what has already been established for Honda and Keiji.


 * Lu Bu
 * Max Attack and Defense (or at least starts as the highest) throughout the Wariors franchises
 * Emphasized as the strongest character in the game's script/marketing (even though that may not be what players actually think)
 * Every personal story he has emphasizes how he is the strongest at some point; defeats rivals for "the right" along the way
 * Hamfisted into many battles/games just to prove that he is "the strongest"
 * Told to avoid conflict with him in certain stages
 * Has his own theme song(s) throughout his Warriors appearances; even used as the motif for some of the game's intro movies
 * Featured in following game intros/promotional movies as a "mighty character" - DW, DW2, DW3, DW4, DW6, WO (and as an extension MOZ), the pachinkos and pachislots, and probably some others I'm forgetting
 * Known for riding a famous horse
 * Often faces players whilst in Hyper state


 * Honda
 * Max Attack and Defense since debut
 * Emphasized as the strongest character in the game's script/marketing (even though that may not be what players actually think)
 * Every personal story he has emphasizes how he is the strongest at some point; defeats rivals for "the right" along the way
 * Hamfisted into many battles just to prove that he is "the strongest" (especially in SW3)
 * Told to avoid conflict with him in certain stages
 * Has his own theme song(s) throughout his Warriors appearances
 * Featured in following game intros/promotional movies as a "mighty character" - SW:XL, SW2, SW3, SW3:XL, WO (and as an extension MOZ), second XL pachislot
 * Often faces players whilst in Hyper state


 * Keiji
 * Max Attack and Horse Attack since debut
 * Featured in following game intros/promotional movies as a "mighty character" - SW (and as an extension SW:XL and State of War), first XL pachislot
 * Told to avoid conflict with him in one stage for one mission in Kenshin's scenario
 * Known for riding a famous horse
 * Hyper state status fluctuates more frequently than Honda or Lu Bu

Look, I know what you're trying to say. Yes, I too still personally consider Keiji to be better than Honda and the real Lu Bu of the series. I think his attacks are faster and much more versatile. I think the only thing Honda has over Keiji is that extremely broken C5. As an extension of my opinion, I think Lu Bu's a chump and severely overrated as "the strongest of DW cast".

But trying to say that Keiji's the "secondary Lu Bu equivalent" in the SW series isn't really the case. To me, that's like trying to argue that Goemon was the "secondary Lu Bu in his debut" (which he was), until Honda was introduced. It's a dated concept and not worth keeping considering all the changes that have been made since then.

If you want to mention how Keiji matches up to Honda and how powerful he is and so on, please mention that in his much neglected fighting style section. That's ideally where all of the stat comparing and other data like that should go for characters. Sake neko 23:13, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Takamaru
I mention Samurai Warriors 3 Z in particular because that's the actual version W03 is using. In this version Takamaru and the other Wii exclusive things don't exist anyways. Rather than being redundant and long-winded, it's easier to be concise. I'm not in anyway trying to be "tricky" or "misleading" as you seem to imply. Kyosei 20:46, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you even played SW3? The weapons types (Power, Speed, Normal) are the same exact weapon but with a different shade. It's the third weapon for returning characters with a different color and default attack stats to distinguish themselves. It's not quite as bad as DW6 characters (which only had new stats and a background change), but it's on the same level.


 * That's why the term Unique/Rare is used since the weapon model itself actually changes. Plus stats and other traits for it are fixed. It's really the returning characters old fourth weapons though. They gain another another unique weapon in SW3XL (reused SW2XL/SWXL 5th weapons for the returning cast). This isn't like actual older titles in the series, which actually featured five or six individually unique weapons for the characters. You get three tops in these games. Sake neko 21:21, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fine, there. The pages and such are accurately named now. I don't see why you're being so accusing about the changes I do when you're just as guilty for putting "fan translated" information yourself. And you are really taking the stuff I do as a hobby for granted if you want me to translate every single thing that's said in interviews. Koei doesn't have a huge fanbase like Madoka does or something like that. And you yourself are not exactly in the position to be demanding if you can't understand what's being said.


 * You're just being very hypocritical, rude, and offensive. Does that come across? Then please be more considerate because it's people you like that makes me want to leave Wiki writing altogether. Sake neko 22:12, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

---

"You don't even respect the format set up and you dare to criticize me? You put trivia on a section despite they are pointless and don't bring anything concrete about the gameplay or the game itself, just because "it's the way I prefer". Formats are done for avoid something like this, please follow them."
 * All that Trivia section is talking about is the gameplay though. It's something that can be easily written into another section since it is described something in depth. Trivia should really be miscellaneous information that really can't be put into any other section of the article. Zhuge Liang's or Masamune's trivia sections are good examples of what I'm trying to say.

"Same for this, you remove "ultimate" on the first rare weapon of Takamaru without taking any account for those who don't have SW3:XL, removing the format used by DW and SW characters pages. You remove Takamaru's second rare weapon information, for... well I don't know. This is not because it's empty that it will not be completed later."
 * Frankly, it would be more appropriate to actually create a new format for SW3+ characters because they actually do follow a unique format compared to other games. I would rather arrange the sections based on their Weapon types, since that is how they actually are in the games themselves. Even the Unique weapons fall into this category. Plus kanji in the infobox looks awkward.


 * The other stuff I don't really know what you're talking about and I'm getting upset since I think you're mistaking me for Kyosei.

I know a little Japanese, and I can translate small words such as Takamaru's second rare weapon without any trouble. If you don't agree about my translation, change it but don't remove it because it's "fan translation". We are on an English wiki, and even if an official translation was not yet established, we need an English word(s) (most accurate possible) between parentheses for those interested, wanting to know what it means and who don't understand Japanese, the same purpose as your translated interviews actually. Also consider this sort of person, like I said, we are on an English wiki, and we are not all gods in Japanese like you
 * No, you weren't complaining about "fan translations" in the original message to me. You were complaining about accuracy. Romanji at this point is more pin-needle accurate than any translation you or me could come up with period. SW Chronicles has the weapon names for the other characters though, and they can be replaced with the localized names by someone who owns it. In this case, putting a localized name for Takamaru's weapon would give the misconception that the game was localized. But you have already established more than once that it hasn't. Thus romanji it stays.


 * I do understand what you're saying, but that elitest bullcrap about "English language for an English wiki" can only go so far. If it hasn't been localized, then you're going to have to reflect that in romanji (sometimes pinyin depending on the subject matter). There's no real good loophole around that in a way that doesn't betray the original material somehow. The only exceptions I can think of are instances in which real world subject matter has been mentioned in localized material.


 * Contrary to what you think, I do not think myself to be a "god of Japanese". I do mistakes and I misspell and I misread things and I mishear things all the time. I even mess up languages I think I'm good in all the time with crummy grammar and what not. I do admit that I know more about the language and culture than some people, but that's about it. Thus the reason why I get really annoyed and angry when people misinterpret things, perhaps more than I should. I translate for fun and for practice, because I enjoy learning different languages and how they link together. Sake neko 23:10, May 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Look, I'm not going to bother arguing your every single point. I'm just getting really irritated with you and your confrontational whining. I'm just going to say that I don't agree with on anything you have just written because you are being more biased and arrogant than me about everything I have written to you. All you are doing at the moment is turning my words against me like I'm a big bad person who hates everyone and anything that isn't me, even though I am trying my hardest to be civil to you and explain myself to you. The civil behavior I'm willing to direct towards you is really wearing thin. We need to cool off and take sometime to absorb what has been said.


 * Being upset and arguing over the Internet with someone I don't know is not something I want to do on Wikis or any other time. So, if you message me one more time about some other minute nuance you have about one page or what not, I'm just not going to answer you at all until I calm down. Which might take awhile for me to do so at the rate you're going. So please, knock it off. Sake neko 23:47, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

RE:Image
The rule of this wiki is only one render of a character, we are not allowed to have multiple renders of the same design. which is why i simply uploaded over the original. had i just uploaded it as another image, it would have just been deleted by the admins/mods. Ixbran 22:24, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Ixbran 22:40, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing you have to know about this wiki is while yes it is a game wiki, alot of the characters, most of them anyway, are based off of historical figures. the admins and mods of this wiki want to keep the wiki clean of unnecessary information images. Heck i actually had to fight with one of the mods to include a DLC Section. at first they stated it wasn't necessary due to DLC being Optional. I don't agree with the policy either, but its best to just submit and do things the way the admins and mods do it. if you argue with them, they could just block you and prevent you from doing anything. Id rather that not happen

 Ixbran 22:51, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally i dont think its anything worth fighting over. they are just images. and due to the wukong image being uploaded over the other one, you can just go in and click the thumbnail of an older version of the submission, and open it in another window, simple as that. the image is still there, but just as a past version.

First thing you should get out of your mind, we're not like every other gaming wiki. We emphasize the written info over the visual. We don't include more than one render if the model, costume, and weapons don't change. If it's just a pose change there's really no point in including it. Downloadable content and the collaboration characters get these multiple renders though mostly to show how they appear in the games mentioned in their article.

I deleted one image because it had the deletion template. I routinely delete anything marked for deletion. Kyosei 23:00, April 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Like i said, the image is still there, just in the image history. just scroll down and click on the icon of the original version of the image and it will load. the only time uploading an older image doesn't work is if the images are different file types, like JPG, GIF or PNG.


 * @Kyosei: and i said so before that you guys concentrate on the historical aspect of the characters earlier before. This wiki is different from other Gameing wikis, something anyone who uses this wiki will learn eventually. Ixbran 23:03, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Answers
I made this a slightly different heading but related as you were making a lot of points that I felt that should be individually addressed and questions not quite related at the same time.


 * "We are not like every other gaming wiki"
 * This is not really justification for anything. This is merely pointing out we are different and not the same as everyone else. Frankly I don't see the need to be like every other wiki either.


 * "your historical information is already written on wikipedia or other wiki about history"
 * This is certainly not the case for many historical figures covered here especially Asian historical figures. I need only direct you to someone more obscure like Wang Yi and her Wikipedia page. In fact, almost the entirety of her Wikipedia article is simply copied/pasted from what was written here. Her husband doesn't even have a page there but has his history written out in full here. Wikipedia also tends to confuse popular culture, myths and legends with actual history making them more often then not misinforming their readers.


 * "[history] becoming something secondary"
 * This is indeed our policy which is why the historical/folklore information is at the bottom below all the game related info. This is why most of these historical sections are blank too as they are not a high priority compared to their game counterparts and we want to take the time to get them done right. Originally, other users wanted the historical information on top similar to how it is on Wikipedia.


 * "something visual like games should have at least all the good and interesting images in one of its objective"
 * Here you seem to imply we ignore this. We don't. We simply see images as another source of information just visual instead. If the reader is not learning any new visual information, it is redundant and not necessary to repeat.


 * "People come here for many reasons, and some for see character images only."
 * True we don't cater to these people and honestly don't see the need to. What we want here are readers and editors to help fill in any missing info. Casual and cursory onlookers are not helpful in growing the community unless they contribute useful written information.


 * "Whopper was agree about this? It was his real ambition about this wiki?"
 * I personally cannot tell how he would think about this or his original ambitions for this wiki beyond it being originally a Dynasty Warriors only wiki that eventually decided to expand to include other franchises. He quit being admin long before I took the reins. He very occasionally stops by now and then but has not raised any issues with me about the wiki thus far and can only assume he has no problems with how it's being handled unless he says otherwise.


 * "Can I also ask you why you are the only one active admin right now?""
 * I am the only active admin here because the rest of them quit for various personal reasons. You can read each of their individual farewell messages: here, here and here. I became admin because I was trying to find one for the wiki, not because I was aiming to become one. I personally wouldn't mind another dedicated admin but it's something that requires a willing individual, a cool head and a large investment of one's personal time among other things.

Kyosei 00:54, April 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * "Some people are not reader at all and are more interested about images, especially for their favorite characters, without taking into account the historical aspect."
 * Given to how much I've read comments about the actual wiki itself from places like Koei Warriors, most of them are about the written info and not about the lack of images themselves. This is especially true for the historical aspects even though this is a gaming wiki because obviously history is a large focus from Koei themselves.


 * "Ixbran, who fears to be blocked if he is arguing with you"
 * I'm not sure why he/she has this impression but I can assure you the fears are really unwarranted. You need only look at my talk page myself to see we have had decent conversations with no threats of bannings made anywhere on subjects we have not agreed upon. The actual number of blocks I do is actually quite limited and mostly to block spam.


 * "despite someone with all the qualifications is already here since 2 years and 2 months! I talk about Sake neko"
 * I've already talked to Sake neko about this in private and they have told me repeatably they do not want the position. This is not something I can force on other people. As I said before it takes a willing individual. If they do not want to do it despite being qualified, they don't have to. They have personally said they feel they would be too hot headed and ban and block users, such as yourself, instantly. Rather than talk it out like I am right now. If you don't believe me, you can ask Sake personally and I can guarantee you will get the same answer.


 * "you and Sake neko are the most active contributors right now"
 * My recent changes list says otherwise at moment. Secondly, although I cannot recall where I read this, more people in general do not like to write new original writing and would rather copy/paste it from somewhere else to here or vice versa as you've seen with Wang Yi. We're very strict about copy/paste here. We want all the writing to be original so readers can a have a unique experience. Not even Wikipedia copy/paste is allowed here, as you've said yourself there's no point for it if they can just read it there.


 * Paraphrasing here "this wiki is a graveyard where no community efforts take place and everyone does their own thing"
 * As much as I'd like there be more usage from the forums and such other things, in the end it's up to people to use them. Though at the same time I can understand why people don't bother using our forums. Most of our visitors understandably come from Koei Warriors. Wiki forums unlike actual forums can be a bit tricky to non-wiki editors. It's simply easier and more efficient to use actual software that supports it better. Wiki code in general is hard for new users to grasp. There's nothing much I can do to help out with that other than to give out help where I see it's needed or for when it's asked.


 * There's also the matter that Koei, the company itself and their games, is quite niche at least in Western/English speaking cultures. While there are a small number of dedicated fans it is dwarfed by other things that are much more popular. Taking into account with people having to adjust to editing wikis and a small fan base to begin with, I do not expect a lot of people to edit here at all to begin with. There's also the fact I would know they would rather do other things with their free time. Editing on wikis is basically working a job without pay. There is no actual benefit to edit a wiki beyond a desire to educate and share what you love with others. Well and get wikia more money with the revenue they accrue from their ads haha.


 * Honestly, I have made past attempts at community involvement. However, due to the factors I mention above participants were few and far in between. I saw no reason to exert effort that saw little payoff and focused on just editing. If you have any suggestions, beyond making a distracting background and something that doesn't solely focus on the Warriors franchise (ideally it should something that would include the company as a whole), I'd be happy to hear them.


 * "no translated interviews with the developers"
 * Sake neko offers on multiple occasions to translate. Though because it is a solo effort, translating takes a long time and something I don't think you should take for granted. In any case some of these are already translated and appear as excerpts in the various character development sections or in the intro paragraphs of game pages. Some examples of this are pretty much all the new Dynasty Warriors 7 and Orochi 3 characters. The comments in the development section were directly taken from interviews with Suzuki and the respective development teams. Sake is even translating and summarizing various Koei-related things such as: Koei-Tecmo LIVE! and the company founder's blog.


 * Kyosei 23:16, April 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * First, I think you saw but I express myself rather roughly with sentences quite pragmatic, but it is not against you personally, this is my way, I hate beating around the bush.
 * Never took it personally to begin with. That's why I took the time to explain things to you.


 * Paraphrasing: These more popular franchises have active communities for their wikis.
 * This is mostly due to the fact they're more popular really. Most people for here are also, understandably, more interested in only helping out with Warriors-related things (Dynasty Warriors in particular), which is actually something that needs the least amount of help. Even further still most would rather write about the character stories than fill out move sets or historical sections.


 * First, creates at least a team of five admins to be able to organise, lead and manage people as cleanly as possible the wiki. You can search on Koei Warriors or fan sites
 * I'd rather they knew something about wiki coding too. Some questions that get asked or things that need help are inevitably about wiki coding in general. Not everyone knows to copy paste code or what not to edit (i.e. the template pages).


 * Make project or suggestions about improving the wiki, and let people give their opinions.
 * There is always projects listed on the wiki. They're even on the main page as the to do list. People just tend to ignore it anyways because they're not interested. That's kind of related to the previous Dynasty Warriors fans only thing I mentioned. As for letting people give their suggestions and opinions, that's what the forums and community portal are for but again people tend to ignore those anyways.


 * Make a new main page format, the one right now is a bit obsolete.
 * Was thinking of doing that but the news section will probably remain unchanged. Sake neko is the one who usually updates it and prefers this format.


 * Find some Japanese translators for interviews, that will help Sake neko and make the work advance more rapidly.
 * I don't really see the point in directly translating interviews word for word. Every interview is usually filled with lots of fluff. By fluff I mean introductions, fan messages and rehashing of info that has already been previously revealed from an official website or source like twitter. They way how it's done now just cuts through that fluff and gets straight to any new actual insights from the developers.


 * In any case thanks for taking the time to give thoughtful suggestions. Kyosei 20:51, May 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Koei Warriors also has rules against advertising websites on their forums. I wouldn't be able to pull from them anyways and the next best thing would be the official forums which aren't that active to begin with.


 * I did see your examples but I would have to organize them differently anyways. They are both focusing on a single franchise. We are focusing on multiple franchises and an entire game company. Kyosei 23:01, May 1, 2012 (UTC)

Fu Xi
I wouldn't call three renders of the same costume and weapon as "valuable" information if that's what you're implying. It's just image spam. This is not the focus of the wiki. Other wikis may have done the same thing you're doing to obnoxious rates even, but even they have changed to focus more on the actual information for a character.

That's about it really. Besides, most (if not all) of those images you can get if you're a fan at Koei Warriors/Taiwanese communities. Sake neko 16:42, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * You're not reading what I'm saying though. It's the same costume and weapon in the three images you put up. Sun Shangxiang has that many images because she's been in more games where her appearance, weapon, or what have you actually changes between them. Artworks like the Treasure Box ones are allowed for the same costume and weapon to respect the original founder's wishes, but no more than that. Sake neko 16:56, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * But I'm trying to tell you that you aren't following the rules. You're being more stubborn than I am at this point just to justify your uploads. Please read what I'm saying to you one more time: It's the same costume and weapon. If it's the same costume and weapon, and it's not a Treasure Box illustration, it's considered a redundant image and it's going to get erased. This is the last time I'm going to warn you because Kyosei's probably going to delete them once they get online anyways. Sake neko 17:11, May 3, 2012 (UTC)

Trivia
It's not trivia because he's a collaboration character; it's accepting the fact that KOEI DID NOT MAKE THIS UP THEMSELVES and it's respecting the ORIGINAL CREATORS' IDEAS. They're both accepting two hands of info. What Koei keeps from the original IP and how they use it in their IP. Sake neko 17:00, May 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read my response really carefully. You're not accepting the fact that they're collaboration characters. Meaning Koei+someone else. Omega Force respects the original IP somehow by incorporating a shared attack into the character's moveset for their own IP.


 * Omega Force shouldn't be held on a sole pedestal of importance if they're openly admitting that they're using someone else's characters. When fans recognize something that a collaboration character shares in both IPs, it is not trivia; it's accepting that fact. You're essentially calling the original IP of a collaboration character "meaningless information" by putting it into the Trivia section. I don't know how many more times I have to repeat it, but I will keep repeating it until that gets through to you. Sake neko 17:35, May 3, 2012 (UTC)