User talk:Master Sima Yi

Hi, welcome to Dynasty Warriors Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the Kaihime page.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Kyosei (Talk) 10:28, 7 August 2009
 * Oh no, this wiki needs help all right. For one, since you obviously have Warriors Orochi 2 for the PSP, you can update the characters who became playable in WOZ since I don't personally own a PSP. Strikeforce info, if you have the game, is also appreciated. Really big thanks for helping out~! :D Sake neko 10:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You're free to add whatever new information you like. Just don't add random spacing/huge empty space to articles. The spacing added is only distracting at best and doesn't really add anything to the article itself. Kyosei 19:10, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Categorizing by Japanese name order
Please do not add this anymore. The reason it is in English order is because that's how it is displayed in English language games. As this is an English based wiki, both the page names and category organization should reflect that. I'm going to be undoing all of the category changes you've done now. Apologies if that makes you feel offended but I'm letting you know ahead of time. Kyosei 19:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It may look weird to you, but that's how most of the general English population knows the characters better. First name first and then they might remember them by last name.


 * On a side note, thanks for updating the Kunoichi-related SW3 info. I had a feeling she wasn't making a return but due to one typo made by a voice actress everyone else thought so... -_- It's nice to see that finally cleared up. Kyosei 19:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Re:Category Names - WO
I don't mind that at all personally. Kyosei 18:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia copy-pasta
This is more of a selfish request from me, but would you please do some research for the historical sections instead of just copying and pasting from wikipedia? It's a decent summary for most of the character's historical notations but usually the English version is not always as accurate as it should be. Plus, there are times when it says stuff that doesn't always coincide with some of the events that the games try to emphasize/exploit. I used to do the same for some characters, but then soon realized the above problems (like with Keiji and the Sanada Braves) and decided to set some time aside to look through books and websites. I won't mind if you keep it as a base and decide to build off of it though. Just don't leave it the same as the wikipedia entry. Sake neko 18:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Categories again
I feel these new categories by location are a bit redundant as it is essentially doing the same thing the battles category is already doing. Battles are already separated by the Warriors series they originate from. The parallel world one is unnecessary as each battle page already specifies it's different takes and incarnations it has in each respective Koei series it's in. At best parallel world could be a Warriors Orochi battle category but again not one that's not really necessary as they're not many unique to that series to begin with.

Secondly, do not categorize redirect pages like Tian Shui‎‎. These pages are not real articles and thus are not meant to be categorized. Kyosei 08:55, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Signing your posts
Just thought you'd like to know the correct way to sign a message you leave on talk pages. You don't have to manually use the code Name and the date. You just need to type ~. This will automatically sign your name and date your signature for you. Kyosei 04:31, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Warriors Orochi series template
It's for the characters/concepts that originate from this particular series, not for all the characters who appear in it. Kyosei 09:57, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Re: Category naming
It's not like wikipedia because this isn't wikipedia. It's a gaming wiki that uses wikipedia software but there are no rules stating it has to organize things like wikipedia. What wikipedia does has no bearing on what is done here or has to be done here. Kyosei 18:38, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * You're still not getting the point I'm making. Yes, this is an informational source where people can look up things but in no way it is stated or formed based upon a formal information source. Wikis don't have to organize like them. It doesn't have to follow a certain naming/organization system, just one that is good enough to make sense for its users/readers to follow. It's quite informal here. Kyosei 18:47, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Copying and pasting from Samurai Archives
Even though not all of it is taken from the Samurai Archive wiki, some of it I see is taken straight from here for Matsunaga. In the future, I ask that you no longer do this. They explicitly state they do not allow any copying of their works to other websites without permission or proper credit/quotations. Unlike our wiki's relation with Koeiwarriors, we do not have any predisposed agreements with Samurai Archives to freely use their information in such a manner.

I personally respect their wishes and ask that you consider to do the same as well. Kyosei 09:35, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to let you know I will be erasing the historical information you added for Matsunaga. After reading between both this and the Samurai Archives article, I see you did no research and little to no paraphrasing. It is a near blatant copy from Samurai Archives and thus a copyright violation as Samurai Archives gives no copyleft rights to their writing.


 * I'm sorry in advance if this offends you but the original authors clearly state you may not copy any of their works as your own. Kyosei 12:10, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * There was not much effort to paraphrase that I could see. Most of the writing was nearly intact, you did not add anything much of any of your own research. Comparisons between your version and the Samurai Archives version the bolded words are where there was no real paraphrasing done:


 * Your version: Hisahide was a companion of Miyoshi Chokei since their childhood. He assisted Chokei in defeating Miyoshi Masanaga in 1549 and was his spokesman in Kyoto. In the 1550's Matsunaga was the Miyoshi's governor of the capital and kept himself close to shogun Ashikaga Yoshiteru. Later, Matsunaga helped conquer Yamato province, where his performances made him an indepent daimyo by 1564.


 * This event led him to idea of underming his former masters. Three of Chokei's brothers and his own heir; Matsunaga Kazunari in 1561 and Matsunaga Jikkyu in 1562 passed away under mysterious circumstances and Atagi Fuyuyasu was murdered in 1564. Chokei's son Yoshioki also had an unnatural death, and it was rumored Matsunaga had poisoned him. This led to Hisahide becoming Chokei's heir when the latter died in 1564.


 * Actually, Chokei adopted Miyoshi Yoshitsugu as his heir after his son's death, and this man was under guardianship of the Miyoshi triumvate: Miyoshi Nagayuki, Miyoshi Masayasu and Iwanari Tomomichi. It was rumored the triumvate was working for Hisahide.


 * '''Shogun Yoshiteru later attempted to get rid of the Miyoshi influence, however this would cost him his life: on June 17 1565 Matsunaga and the Miyoshi surrounded Yoshiteru's palace and Yoshiteru was forced to commit suicide. The infant Yoshihide was placed at the throne, which promted Yoshiteru's brother Yoshiaki to flee and seek out a patron.


 * Meanwhile, the Matsunga and the Miyoshi started fighting. In 1566 the Matsunaga were defeated outside Sakai and Hisahide himself failed in attempts to reduce the Miyoshi's presence in Kwatchi. Shortly after, a truce was arranged and Matsunaga was allowed to leave Sakai, while fighting inland continued. During the conflict, Matsunaga was reputed to have burned down the Great Buddha Hall of the Todaiji, an action that showed Matsunag's villainous side.


 * In 1568 Yoshiaki secured the Oda clan, led by Nobunaga, under his services. In November 1568 Nobunaga marched on Kyoto. Matsunaga was afraid of the Oda forces and submitted to Nobunaga, and was allowed to keep his lands in Yamato. Nobunaga used Hisahide asa tool to battle the Miyoshi and to expand the Oda's influence in Yamato. Hisahide sent Nobunaga a renowned tea item known as Tsukumogami as a token of Nobunaga's sincerity, a gift Nobunaga, a tea enthusiast, highly appreciated. Hisahide was useful to the Oda in the following years in it's battles against the Asai, Asakura and the Miyoshi.


 * Hisahide began scheming against Nobunaga, with the Miyoshi. However, Hisahide soon was back on Nobunaga's side. He helped to ultimately the destroy the Miyoshi and helped in the Ishiyama Honganji campaign. In this battle, Hisahide rebelled again and left his position. He returned to Yamato, hoping that other Yamato daimyo would follow. This was not the case and Matsunaga was quickly surrounded by the Oda and Tsutsui in Shigi castle. Word cam that Nobunaga wanted to things from Hisahide: his head and a tea item known as Hiragumo, which Matsunaga smashed befor killing himself with explosives. His son Hisamichi was captured and executed in Kyoto.


 * Samurai Archives: A companion of Miyoshi Chokei since childhood, Hisahide first notably appears in 1549, when he assisted Chokei in the defeat of Miyoshi Masanaga and acted as his spokesman in Kyôto (he first appears as a Miyoshi retainer in documents dated 1541). During the 1550’s Matsunaga acted as the Miyoshi’s governor of the capital, and stayed close to the shôgun, Ashikaga Yoshiteru. Hisahide was later tasked with the conquest of Yamato province, an endeavor that made him, by 1564, essentially an independent daimyo.


 * Already, Matsunaga was working to undermine his former masters; between 1561 and 1564, three of Chokei’s brothers and his heir died. Matsunaga Kazunari (1561) and Matsunaga Jikkyu (1562) passed on under what may be considered mysterious circumstances while Atagi Fuyuyasu (1564) was murdered. In 1563 Chokei’s son and heir Yoshioki also died what was probably unnatural death. The extent to which Hisahide had a hand in all of this will never be known, but he was rumored to have poisoned Yoshioki. Furthermore, some said that he framed Fuyuyasu and goaded Chokei into having him killed. Regardless of how bloody his hands may have been, Matsunaga was essentially the heir to Chokei’s domain when the latter died in August of 1564.


 * In point of fact Chokei had adopted the young Miyoshi Yoshitsugu as heir after Yoshioki’s death, and this young man was presently under the guardianship of the so-called Miyoshi triumvirate: Miyoshi Nagayuki, Miyoshi Masayasu, and Iwanari Tomomichi, who held Sakai, the Miyoshi’s Settsu headquarters. While animosity existed between the triumvirate and Hisahide, for the time being they acted in unison.


 * Shôgun Yoshiteru had lately attempted to rid himself of the pervasive Miyoshi influence he had been saddled with for years; his efforts at independence cost him his life. On 17 June 1565 troops sent by Matsunaga and the Miyoshi closed on the shogun’s palace and forced Yoshiteru to commit suicide after a heroic struggle. In his place the infant Yoshihide was installed, an act that prompted Yoshiteru’s brother Yoshiaki to flee and seek out a patron.


 * In the meantime Matsunaga and the Miyoshi came to a parting of ways and began fighting. In 1566 Matsunaga’s warriors were defeated outside Sakai, and Hisahide himself failed in attempts some time later to reduce the Miyoshi presence in Kwatchi. A truce was arranged that allowed Matsunaga to leave the Sakai area, and fighting continued further inland. In the course of the conflict, Matsunaga is reputed to have burned down the Great Buddha Hall of the Todaiji (Nara), to this day considered a needless act of near-villainy.


 * In 1568 Yoshiaki secured the services of Oda Nobunaga, the up-and-coming lord of Mino and Owari; in November of 1568 Nobunaga marched on Kyôto. Faced with this unexpected danger, Matsunaga cannily decided to submit and was allowed to keep his lands in Yamato. Most likely Nobunaga was him as a useful tool both against the Miyoshi and to expand Oda influence into Yamato. In addition, Matsunaga had sent, as a token of his sincerity, a renowned tea item known as Tsukumogami, a gesture which no doubt effected Nobunaga (a bit of a tea enthusiast himself). Matsunaga did prove useful over the next few years, serving Nobunaga in his wars with the Asai and Asakura and against, of course, the Miyoshi.


 * By 1573, however, Matsunaga was conspiring against Nobunaga with, of all people, Miyoshi Yoshitsugu. This arrangement did not last long, and soon Matsunaga was back on Nobunaga’s side, helping to destroy Yoshitsugu and the remaining Miyoshi. Hisahide then became involved in the siege of the Ishiyama Honganji. In 1577 Hisahide rebelled once again; he and his son Hisamichi abandoned their positions around the Honganji and returned to Yamato, possibly hoping that other Yamato daimyo, such as Tsutsui Junkei would follow. This proved not the case, and Tsutsui and Oda Nobutada soon surrounded Matsunaga in Shigi castle. Word came that Oda sought two things from Matsunaga - his head and a certain valuable tea item, ‘Hiragumo’, which Matusnaga defiantly smashed before killing himself. Hisamichi was captured alive and taken to Kyôto, where he was executed.


 * Differences between the two: There are fewer words but it's nearly the exact same sentences just slightly rearranged or reworded. Sometimes not at all. That is not paraphrasing. It's almost closer to plagiarism. Kyosei 22:14, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * Justifying you didn't know any better due to your age, ethnicity/nationality or short-term memory is still no excuse. I still would have told you the same thing if you were a 70 year old man from New Jersey with photographic memory. I appreciate that you want to help but plagiarizing someone else's work - especially when they say not to - is not the way to do it. It's the equivalent to copying someone else's answers on a test and scoring well because of it. I doubt your country's education system advocates that kind of behavior.


 * If you forget something easily while researching, take short notes to refer back to. If you find it hard to concentrate, take breaks while researching and save your work so you can go back to it later. It doesn't have to get done all at once. The point is you can use the facts they give just not their words. It has to be written in your writing. Your words. That's how I knew almost immediately that you didn't write it. It had a completely different writing style. Kyosei 06:50, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason why it still looks similar in both length and word flow is because you use only one source. When doing research you're supposed to use multiple sources to fill in holes of information.


 * For example, in Kagekatsu's page you get his birth and then it skips nearly 20 years of his life to talk about his civil war with his brother. There's no mention of why Kenshin adopts him. There's no mention of his life at the Uesugi household before then. There's no mention of why Kagekatsu decided he wanted to fight for the right to inherit the family. How did he win this civil war? Why did he gain the upper hand? You also didn't mention anything of Kagekatsu's personal life such as who he married, his concubines, etc. There's also the matter of neglecting to mention his close relationship with Kanetsugu. There are also a few spelling errors in the battles you mention during his service of Hideyoshi. You didn't do any research beyond what Samurai Archives tells you. This is why your version looks glaringly similar to Samurai Archives.


 * The main problem I see with this that it feels like you're writing about the subject matter you don't really understand. In your efforts in trying to rewrite it you miss some important details and make mistakes that you don't realize are mistakes. It also feels like you're listing a bunch a facts without realizing the significance behind any of them. Kyosei 19:28, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

New articles for NPCs
I kinda like that you're adding more pages, but can you try to aim it for characters who have been in more Koei titles rather than just the Bodyguards list from Samurai Warriors? This faintly reminds me of another person who made the flood of ROTK npc articles and did practically nothing for them but create them. I do have faith that you will go back and edit them but I just wanted to give you a heads up first. If you must make more SW npcs, do Hidetada Tokugawa or Tadatomo Honda since they played secondary roles in kessen and have more to write for in SW or WO. Sake neko 15:55, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I know Hanbei fought under Hideyoshi. That's the key note with Hanbei in general. He was fighting under Hideyoshi not Nobunaga. That's what the Samurai Warriors version of him is emphasizing. Plus, I put him on the Oda page and not the Toyotomi page because he didn't live long enough to see the Toyotomi name really be used. But when he served Hideyoshi, his master was still known as Hashiba thus the reason why he's linked on the Oda page. Sake neko 16:10, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * On another note, I also don't like the fact that you are relying on me to "fill in the gaps". I would rather someone else help the wiki by filling in the gaps for all of the relatively empty NPCs pages before trying to make new ones. Sake neko 16:20, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind writing in the Kessen notes for the characters that actually appear in those games.

I'm more complaining your assumptions regarding characters like Ryuzoji and the other bodyguard characters. Although they're important for their contributions in history, that does not always mean they play a big part in Koei's games. Please be a bit more practical before you decide to make a page. If they aren't really mentioned by name in Samurai Warriors, then don't include them. Save them for later. To me, bodyguards don't play a huge role in Samurai Warriors since they're optional. I would only include them as a NPC article right now if they've been in another Koei game; for this wiki, let's try to limit it to Kessen or Kessen III. Just because Kaihime was made playable doesn't mean these other characters will be, so don't make more pages for them.

As much as I like Nobunaga's Ambition, I don't really consider it a "game role" for most characters since they mostly reenact what they do in history/popular stories or myths. I would count the Online versions of their characters, but that's a lot of mini quests and other stories to keep track of for a game that I don't really own. Some of the quests are just advertisements for their merchandise too. I'm going to do Ryuzoji at least since he's a bit easier to keep track of. Sake neko 17:07, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * They're still optional in Samurai Warriors 2. You don't have to buy or use bodyguards. It does matter when they're made because their creation only increases the amount of work still needed to done for this wiki. I do not want another load of NPCs when not even the playable characters for SW or DW or any other series is done yet. Sake neko 17:19, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe when more of the items on the To-Do List on the front page is done. Sake neko 17:23, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you click on the image, you'll see where I got it from. Though to be honest, it's any online Japanese news source. I just used those because they happen to be the best representation that I can use from the articles I've seen online. Sake neko 17:25, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I would rather you wrote about NPCs you knew for sure appeared in other Koei games and played a somewhat significant role. As it is right now, you're making pages and assuming they did something in other Koei games. These assumptions are not helpful as at times they can lead to misinforming the reader.

You also don't seem to understand the work load that could build up with an excess of new article stubs. At best it will annoy other users. If you're confused refer to this user's talk page. It's incredibly easy to make a new article. It's another matter entirely to finish them. With each new article stub made, it feels like once again you're making the assumption that it's easy to complete an article. Kyosei 18:53, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm now debating on what to do with NPC pages you have created. While historically they may have been important, this wiki is first and foremost a gaming wiki. The main focus should be on whether they have any significant roles in the games first. As it is, you've created pages for NPCs that have no significant roles beyond being optional bodyguards at best. Kyosei 21:11, October 2, 2009 (UTC)